Behind the Curtain by Living Opera
Behind the Curtain, hosted by soprano Soula Parassidis and tenor Norman Reinhardt at the beautiful Hotel Bristol in Vienna, is a video podcast by Living Opera that takes listeners beyond the grand performances and into the heart of opera. Through candid, thought-provoking conversations, the podcast reveals insights that transcend the stage, exploring universal themes such as personal growth, leadership, and perseverance. Whether you're a seasoned opera enthusiast or simply curious about how artistry intersects with everyday life, Behind the Curtain offers a unique perspective that bridges the world of performance with real-world challenges and experiences. Watch the video version of this podcast on Living Opera's Facebook and YouTube Channels.
Behind the Curtain by Living Opera
Dissecting Artist Economics with Christos Makridis
What happens when the worlds of economics and opera collide? Christos Makridis, professor, entrepreneur, social scientist, and co-founder of Living Opera, joins us to explore this unique intersection and reveal why the arts often go unnoticed by those who study numbers and markets. Christos takes us on his journey from the realms of economics and engineering into the intricate world of the performing arts, sharing his research on artists' labor market experiences and the fascinating challenges of interpreting artistic careers through data. We uncover why understanding the unpredictable nature of creative paths is more crucial than ever.
We confront the issue of artist compensation and the broader value of the arts in our society. With artists often earning less than their peers, we challenge the misconception that the arts are less significant compared to other fields, such as healthcare. Through engaging examples and thoughtful dialogue, we highlight the essential role the arts play in enhancing our lives and explore strategies for better funding and support. Join us for a rich discussion on the arts' indispensable place in our world and the creative solutions needed to ensure their prosperity.
The Behind the Curtain Podcast is hosted by Soprano Soula Parassidis and Tenor Norman Reinhardt. Follow Living Opera on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, and Website.
Watch A VIDEO version of this podcast on Living Opera's Facebook or YouTube Channels.
I want to welcome everybody back to Behind the Curtain. I am Sule Parasitis, I am the lead founder of Living Opera and today I am with the whole team. And I don't know why I'm talking like this suddenly, because we're doing a robot episode.
Christos Makridis:It just sounds good. It's about AI. This whole episode is about AI.
Soula Parassidis:Oh, okay, it is. I didn't know that. Okay cool. Well, anyway, I'm Zula.
Norman Reinhardt:I'm Norman.
Soula Parassidis:And today we have Christos Mikridis with us, who is our co-founder, and we're super excited about this conversation because we're going to get into your research agenda.
Christos Makridis:That's right. I'm looking forward to it.
Soula Parassidis:Yes, I was like you can talk.
Christos Makridis:Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, there's um. So I'm trained as an economist. Oh, just dive right into it, get into it, just get it. Here we go, let's go in.
Soula Parassidis:Hey, christos, tell us a bit about your background.
Christos Makridis:Yeah, well, thank you for the segue. So you know, the funny thing is I never anticipated doing research. I mean, I guess a lot of us can say I never anticipated doing X when you were a child. But when I started going to undergraduate I fell in love with the process of creating and analyzing data and it just became kind of like an art form in one sense, because you're able to piece together so many different things. And so I ended up doing two doctorates, one in economics, one in engineering, although it's a branch of engineering called management science and engineering.
Soula Parassidis:You can't put furniture together. Don't get excited because you're not able to help me.
Christos Makridis:Well, the thing is you don't get practice in this department around putting together furniture or anything of that sort. You get practice around operations, research, optimization, management, science and so on. Anyways, both of those were done at Stanford and I really developed a passion for understanding this intersection of how technology changes the way that we work and the way that we live and so many things we engage in without kind of like actually knowing that we're engaging in it. So you pull up your phone, you make a booking on Uber or you go on Google Maps and you don't really realize all the technology behind it, and so I spent a lot of my time studying that. But yeah, I mean, kind of what I was thinking about as time elapsed was why don't economists study more about arts and culture? And that's kind of where it brings us today and why I'm really excited to share some of the work that I've been doing.
Soula Parassidis:No, we're super excited to hear about your findings and your two newly published papers and, just before the episode we talked about, it might be helpful to give context to your research, to talk about how each of us got started as singers, because one of the things you do as a researcher is look at origin points and things that happen over time.
Christos Makridis:Yeah, so no, I mean, and yeah, exactly. It's like you go from the individual example, the anecdotes, to what do you see in a population at large or a large sample, and so, working with data from the Census Bureau or Bureau of Labor Statistics or whatever it might be, you look at things in aggregate and so, to be able to line that up with individual experiences, hopefully there's alignment between what you're seeing in aggregate data and what you see at an individual level. If not, that begs it. There's maybe a question around, maybe there's some gap, maybe you see stuff in the data and you're missing a fundamental variable of interest. So the experiences that both of you had were really informative for the work that we ended up doing.
Soula Parassidis:Yeah, but I think it's really interesting because you look at sorry, I'll take that again I had a thought and it just went away. Hang on. Yes, our first cut what I wanted to say because you just dove right in.
Christos Makridis:That's right. You just screwed up my flow. You've got to get into it?
Soula Parassidis:No, sorry. I think it's relevant to discuss how a researcher would take data and kind of look at the lives of artists almost formulaically, because I think our business is pretty much obsessed with creating a formula for how do I create a singing career?
Norman Reinhardt:Oh my gosh, and I think that, that sort of what the formulas to death?
Soula Parassidis:I mean.
Norman Reinhardt:Sorry, I shouldn't say that, but maybe let's cut that too.
Soula Parassidis:Wow, this is really going well. No, but we are looking for ways basically to reproduce and reproduce. But that's actually not how creative work actually works, most of the time. We have to leave space. So how do you, as a researcher, actually account for the variables within data to get an honest answer and an honest statistic at the end of the day?
Christos Makridis:Yeah, well, a big branch of economics is around this concept of causal inference, so trying to understand what's the effect of one thing on another. And to do that, because economists don't have the same environment that a physicist has where they could do experiments. And there's certain laws of gravity, there's certain laws of motion, and in economics there's not that same sort of natural laws that pervade human behavior. There is this idiosyncrasy, and so where economists tried to make progress is by kind of simulating as much of an experiment as possible, and so there's different methodologies for creating a sort of quasi-experiment. But there's also different data, different control variables allow you to turn off certain valves.
Christos Makridis:You might think about certain mechanisms in the world as valves, and so you basically say I want to the world as valves, and so you basically say I want to control for this, I want to control for that and I just want to focus on this one kind of factor. And so one of the papers that I mean we'll probably get into a little more detail was around what are the labor market experiences of the average artist? And so to actually answer that question, you have to be able to control for many different factors, because artists and non-artists, there's thousands, millions of differences, and so you can control for all the usual suspects like age, race, education, et cetera. And then you really want to hone in on certain mechanisms about the question that you have at hand so that's kind of how economists think about it is by one of like causal inference. I want to understand X on Y. So I'm going to try to control for as many factors as possible and leverage certain statistical techniques that let me really put the spotlight on that one variable that I care about.
Soula Parassidis:Okay, so we will talk about how we each came to saying but just on a high level, am I basically an anomaly that would screw?
Christos Makridis:up your findings. No, I mean, I think you're an anomaly that enhances the findings. Oh, thank you so much. Yeah, you're welcome, but no, I mean the thing is, in every statistical model there will always be an error component. I don't want to get too much into the details, but you might just think about yeah, please don't do that.
Soula Parassidis:Yeah, please. Okay, fine, we're going to run out of questions. Colton OGDEN-.
Christos Makridis:OK, well, there we go so now I have just nothing to say. I'm just kidding. So whenever you have a statistical model, a mathematical model, there's always some idiosyncratic component. This is a difference between what's called a deterministic and a stochastic model. So a margin of error you just be like A plus B equals C.
Soula Parassidis:Right.
Christos Makridis:So it's like go to this voice teacher, get this training, get this agent, and then you'll have this outcome, and of course that's not reality and so yeah, and so I think the task for any researcher is you start with the hypothesis that is going to that answering that question will create some value for society. That is going to that answering that question will create some value for society. I think sometimes a lot of researchers come up with a hypothesis that even if we knew the answer, the world wouldn't really be that different. And so one of the hypotheses there's kind of two papers that we'll talk about in this episode, but one of the papers was about how do artists actually do in the labor market? So we want to understand how much do they earn relative to non-artists, controlling for many other factors. And then second was if you get more education as an artist, does that actually help you earn more in the labor market? And the short answer is no, it doesn't. And that's sort of shocking. We'll get into that for sure that was insane.
Soula Parassidis:Okay, I think it would just be relevant for framing all of your findings and, yes, the devastating information you're going to give us. Norman, can you just talk a little bit about your trajectory?
Norman Reinhardt:The devastating information. Yes and then.
Soula Parassidis:I will, we're going to touch a little bit more about, because I think we're going to. I asked our living opera community if they would like to hear some of my stories.
Norman Reinhardt:Sure.
Soula Parassidis:So we're deciding right now, based on the community outcome.
Christos Makridis:What stories will be relevant and why?
Soula Parassidis:And I think it's quite funny, isn't it, that we usually enjoy those sorts of stories more. We don't actually really like the formula, yeah.
Christos Makridis:You know especially.
Soula Parassidis:PR and marketing teams really don't like it. Like so, what did you do? Oh, I went to school and then I got a job. It's like man, where's the drama? Where's?
Christos Makridis:the adversity.
Soula Parassidis:We want that, we want that.
Christos Makridis:People want to see drama.
Soula Parassidis:No it's true, but, norman, can you just talk a bit about how you started singing and how you ended up at Oprah Leipzig, which is where we met?
Norman Reinhardt:Okay, mine's very short.
Soula Parassidis:Great. Thank goodness I can save some time on this episode.
Norman Reinhardt:This is a grade six formula here we go. Grade six formula here it comes, I'm not going to make you laugh. So I grew up singing in church. My father's a minister, so I grew up singing in church and I sang southern gospel music and I sang in quartets and I sang some country music.
Soula Parassidis:Can you give us a sample right this minute, please Sorry.
Norman Reinhardt:No, I can't Sorry. I got friends in low places, but Garth Brooks for anybody that wants to know. But so that's what I grew up singing. I grew up singing a little bit of musical theater, all that kind of stuff. But I had an aunt who loved opera Aunt.
Soula Parassidis:Sandy.
Norman Reinhardt:Aunt Sandy and she introduced me to Pavarotti because that was her favorite singer, which is pretty good. It wasn't bad, yeah, he was okay, and that's where I started to enjoy it, yeah. And then I went to school at a community college in Hickory, north Carolina, and started studying music Because I didn't know what else to do. I didn't figure I would do this for a living, because I was like what in the world? I actually figured I would just become. If I was going to do music, I would just work with my dad in the church or something. If I was going to do music, I would just work with my dad in the church or something. And I then went to a small school in Wilmore, kentucky, called Asbury University, where I finished my bachelor's degree. But then I was recruited by Stephen King, who in the States is a well-known voice teacher at the University of Kentucky, to do two years of master's, ended up getting recruited by Houston Grand Opera and the Young Artist Studio.
Norman Reinhardt:All of this was going forward. I had no idea what I was doing. I had no idea what profession I was getting into. I liked the music and I liked to sing and so that was really my. It was kind of. You know, there was my drive. I didn't really know where this was going to take me, and so my drive was I like to work hard on singing. So I worked hard, you know, on doing that thing, but I didn't know really what I was getting myself into. And so then I went to Houston Grand Opera, did the studio for three years.
Soula Parassidis:That's a young artist program and that's a young artist program in the US.
Norman Reinhardt:And then, yeah, I started working.
Soula Parassidis:But you were following the quote-unquote formula. In a sense I was following kind of you did an undergrad yeah, I did an undergrad. You started a master's?
Norman Reinhardt:Yeah, you got recruited by a professional opera company before your master's concluded yeah, I followed a track that I didn't know I was following.
Soula Parassidis:Right, you were recruited by a really influential agent.
Norman Reinhardt:Yeah, and I was. You know, I was yeah and I started working and after about three years of freelancing, voice started changing. You know the things that happened to everybody. And I was living in the States, I was working in Europe. I preferred it in Europe and Europe also worked. My voice is on the smaller side, so the European houses, the aesthetic worked better, all that. So I moved to Germany and that's when I did the Fest in Leipzig, which is where we met, and that's kind of how we ended up. There's more to it than that, but I mean, that's kind of a general arc. No, I was looking at that point too.
Soula Parassidis:And for anybody who's listening that doesn't know what a fest job is? It's basically where you're on salary at one opera house and it's a full time job and you can stay there, you know, I guess, for as long as they want to extend your contract. So we were there for three seasons, my trajectory was different than yours. I was on the sort of prescribed path, so to speak. So I don't know how that looks in your scatter plots, but's like, would it be like a nice?
Christos Makridis:boom, yeah. And then it was like boom, yeah. It's like down, up, yeah, so that adds noise to the sample. But uh, yeah, and you're a dramatic soprano, so how uh operatic is that yeah?
Soula Parassidis:no, um, so my trajectory was obviously a bit different than yours I fell into singing opera accidentally when I went to an audition I thought it was for a play and ended up being for a musical and they asked me to sing acapella on the spot and I was like, okay, and I didn't know any better and I was 12, so it didn't matter. And they said I had a good voice. I started studying opera at the age of 14. I went to university and started the path that you're supposed to do. I had offers to come to the States and do a masters and you know competitions all all the things you're supposed to do.
Soula Parassidis:But, um, I graduated with my degree from university of British Columbia and got diagnosed with thyroid cancer the week after and that sent me on a very different path where I sort of started making my own journey in the business. Not because it's funny, at the time it felt like all those doors were closed they probably weren't, but psychologically I was like not in the place anymore. To to pursue that or to even really take advice from people from the past. It was like a breaking point for me yeah, everything was connected.
Soula Parassidis:everything before I was like I need to get out of here, I need to leave Canada, and so I went to Germany and I put myself through my own sort of training program where I used to learn German in the morning, go to shows at night, try to figure out, can I even do this job? And long story short, I did a concert in someone's house in a living room about the size of maybe this room, maybe a little bigger than this room that we're in right now and was discovered quote unquote, met an agent and four months later got my first jobs.
Soula Parassidis:basically, I'm pretty sure that's the timeline.
Christos Makridis:One thing that I think is common, though, is that, like there's always these inflection points in somebody's journey, and we have many different inflection points.
Christos Makridis:So for Norman, one of them was Aunt Sandy having like a really big impact and introducing it in a nice way, because people can introduce ideas in a bad way and you can have trauma associated with things.
Christos Makridis:So that's part of the reason I mean speaking that inflection point in a negative way of just like the way that cancer and just that history then now it doesn't mean that you can't overcome that. Obviously you did, but there's always these inflection points, and in your, in the moment, you don't always see those inflection points, but they're there, and being attentive to them, you can navigate it more, more effectively, and so. But the other thing I mean, even with the formula, even though there's no formula that we can really follow, there can be best practices. But one thing for Norman I think that was so important was that you actually liked it. People get into things they don't like and they stick with it Big time. Yeah, it happens all the time, yeah, and so I think, even though you didn't know exactly where you were going or how the career would emerge, it was still like you actually liked it.
Norman Reinhardt:I liked it and that motivated me to work. Yeah, Because if you don't like it and you're not motivated to work hard, then you won't. Oh, definitely you have to be, you know. However, whatever path you go down, you have to go after it. Yeah, Even if you don't know how to do it or what, at least you're making that effort, and Exactly so that was for me. Yeah, that's true.
Soula Parassidis:Yeah, I wanted to ask about these two journeys to end up in the same theater for basically the same pay, doing the same kinds of roles. If you were to track that over time, what methodology would you use? Would that be a question that yields a relevant result? Because I think that is at least for us. In our sort of small world of opera. We are always trying to uncover and unfold how does one get? To that point.
Soula Parassidis:And one of the strengths of the Living Opera Project up until now was saying like here are two people who've had totally different trajectories and they've sort of both made careers, and you know, how does that work?
Christos Makridis:In one sense, actually, the irony here is that Norman is a bit more the anomaly, because the actual rule of going I'm not the special, oh my gosh. We're all anomalous. Yeah, let's get out of here.
Soula Parassidis:This ends now.
Christos Makridis:But no, I mean the track of following, like going to get a college degree or conservatory, a master's degree, maybe that actually is the one that on average pays a lot less. So in the first paper that was kind of inspired by a lot of the experiences and conversations we were having this is out in the Journal of Cultural Economics and it's titled the Labor Market Experiences of Artists, and so what I did was I used something like 10 million observations from the American Community Survey, which is a product that the US Census Bureau puts out, and so you can see individual-level information on wages, salary, hours, worked, occupation which is important for figuring out who's an artist and who's not degree of study and many other characteristics demographic characteristics, the state that somebody's in the county that somebody's in, and so on. And so result number one was a result that is unfortunate but maybe doesn't come as a surprise to the general public, namely that artists tend to earn less. The part that was worse than what I think people were anticipating, or I was anticipating, is that artists earn about 15% less relative to non-artists, but that has doubled over the past 15 years. So 2006, it was around 15% less, now it's minus 30%. So artists are earning now 30% less than non-artists, controlling for other factors. So it's not as if you're comparing somebody who's like 55 to somebody who's 25. This is controlling for age, it's controlling for education, et cetera.
Christos Makridis:The second big set of results so was exactly on this point of like. What is the pathway to success on average Because that's what data tends to reveal is, you can say, on average for a particular group, under certain conditions, this is what tends to lead to this particular outcome. So I compared individuals that had a college degree with those that don't have a college degree and are in the arts and so, having a college degree, I think it was about 3.2% less earnings per year. Uh, 3.2% less. And then, uh, for those artists that had a master's degree, relative to those that didn't have a master's degree and only had a college degree, it's about 13% less.
Soula Parassidis:And so wait, wait, wait, wait. So just say that again slowly, because that's yeah, yeah, it's a lot of effect here, yeah, yeah yeah, exactly that so yeah vroom uh
Christos Makridis:so, uh, the traditional concept and it's traditional um wisdom in economics is that the more education that you get, the higher your earnings. It makes sense, the more you learn.
Soula Parassidis:You have what like seven degrees yeah, that's right, so more.
Christos Makridis:This is a good phrase. Maybe somebody has come up with it before the more you learn, the more you earn, but that is not necessarily you are a literal genius.
Christos Makridis:I just thought of it on the spot. And a poet. Yeah, exactly, you should have seen the poetry I was reading before this, but anyways, that'll be another episode, but no, so the more you learn, the more you earn is probably right. The question is are you learning the most in the current degree programs that are offered? And so individuals who are artists and get a college degree are in about 3.2% less than the artists that don't have a college degree. Then, when you get a master's degree again, this is for the sample that's an artist those that get a master's degree earn about 14.7% less than those that just have a college degree 13.7% less.
Christos Makridis:And the other really important factor here is that you're not taking into account debt tuition.
Soula Parassidis:I was literally just about to ask you about that. Yeah.
Christos Makridis:So this data doesn't allow me to see the cost of educational attainment. It's just your annual earnings in that particular year and again controlling for many other factors. So this first paper really revealed that the traditional blueprint that Norman followed of going to school and getting an additional degree actually is probably not the best advice to follow on average. Now, the thing that was also different about Norman's trajectory was that training under a particular person, so just getting a degree is going to probably set you up for harder, more of an uphill battle, because then you just become another cog in the machine. But if you're training with the right person, that can be inspirational good mentorship, the right network and so on.
Christos Makridis:So this also segues into the second paper that is now coming out in the Journal of Arts Entrepreneurship I think sorry, it's Journal of Entrepreneurship of the Arts and in this one we were looking at this is with a friend and colleague named Jonathan Kakowski at University of Michigan. He chairs the arts entrepreneurship unit at University of Michigan and one of the things we first started with is how prevalent is entrepreneurship in the arts, like how many colleges actually even offer curricula around that, and so we manually collected, we went through, like all the major universities by US News and then we looked at their curricula offerings and found that around 10% offer anything related to arts entrepreneurship. So in general, you're not going to find arts entrepreneurship classes at most universities, which will circle back to why we are very excited in Living Opera to try to create entrepreneurial content for artists. But the second big result was asking in the American Community Survey that used in the first paper is for those artists that get a business degree as well.
Christos Makridis:So you get a fine arts degree and then you also get a business degree. How does that affect your earnings? And not that business degrees are necessarily a perfect proxy for entrepreneurship, because I mean, how many of us have been in a business class that you don't really well? How many of us? Yeah, maybe not that many of us in this particular room, because this is a selected sample, but how many of us? Yeah, maybe not that many of us in this particular room, because this is a selected sample, but how many?
Soula Parassidis:of us rhetorically speak. This will be on the internet, don't worry, yeah.
Christos Makridis:How many of us in this internet global room have been in a business class? Yeah, and you don't necessarily learn how to be an entrepreneur, but business tends to be the most closely correlated degree program. So one of the things that we found was that artists that have a college degree we know from the first paper earn a little bit less, but still those that get a business degree, it raises their earnings for about 4.2% per year. So you still earn less than non-artists. By being an artist, you still earn less, but by getting a business degree, together with the arts, you narrow that gap by about half. So the total gap in the sample is about 8.7%. You narrow it down to minus 4.5% and that's why the title of this paper was Narrowing the Gap, when we were trying to explore the role that entrepreneurship plays for artists.
Soula Parassidis:So sorry, let me understand something. What skills would people be learning in a business degree that could close that gap so significantly?
Christos Makridis:Yeah, well, I can speak from my experience at Arizona State University where I did my undergraduate, and I think that there were a couple of classes. These were actually one credit hour classes. So sometimes the most effective classes for entrepreneurship are actually those like one credit hour ones, not like the three credit hour, like supply chain management. So I actually had one of the worst teachers I've ever had in the supply chain management Anyways. So not a diss against people that take supply chain management. So what do you learn? Coming back to the original question, keep it on point. Well, one thing is just about practical things around how do you manage your calendar? So productivity.
Soula Parassidis:Time management yeah.
Christos Makridis:Yeah, time management, organizational skills. Another one was a great book called Never Eat Alone, and the concept was we spend a lot of time eating in our lives, and so what if you ate with somebody every time that you ate, and that would be a great relational activity. Now, that's one thing. In Europe that happens a lot more is that going out and eating is more of a social activity, but in the United States it's so common for people to eat at their desks, which I am a culprit of. But it's like this concept of building relationships, and I think one of the and this is what I want to land the plane on in this particular part here is that so many times we try to building relationships into a formula, and so people connect with all these people on LinkedIn and then they're wondering like, oh, I doubled my follower count or my number of friends, but it doesn't necessarily translate into opportunities, into long-term engagements, because there isn't that trust factor there, and so I think one of the most powerful lessons that you can learn in a business program and it doesn't have to be a business program, but you're just more likely to learn it in one is the importance of relationships, practical issues relating to time management and building your brand.
Christos Makridis:There are many other classes around finance, corporate finance, which isn't going to help you in personal finance. That's a totally separate area of finance, and it is true that colleges need to bring a bigger focus on personal finance, but that's an episode for another day. So, all in all, I really think that business programs at least bring these issues to the forefront and there can be some really and you don't even need to get a full business degree. You can get a certificate program. I mean, one of the other certificates that I had in my undergrad was like a business consulting certificate and it just took three extra classes. So just be on the lookout for additional programs that you can take. And, of course, that's one of the things that we try to offer within Living. Opera is around access to these sort of practical things that you just need to know.
Soula Parassidis:But where's the balance? Because I think that's one of the concerns that a lot of artists have, yeah, and I've even had to learn it myself and we've had to learn it in building this project. I mean, I think it probably would have been difficult for me to build a project up to this scale, honestly, if the pandemic hadn't happened, because it's challenging. I mean, speaking of time, it's funny that time management would be something that comes up, because I actually find a lot of specifically, opera singers I know are extremely good at time management. It's impossible to learn multiple roles at once, show up at rehearsal on time, do everything you need to do, take care of your body without kind of partitioning out your day. But I'm just sort of curious how does that affect one's pursuit of artistry in its purest sense, and is there a danger of getting sort of too stuck in the entrepreneurial mindset that it stifles your creativity in the end?
Christos Makridis:Yeah Well, so think about the labor market and the set of jobs that are out there. There's a continuum of them, and so each job, each role I mean within a job it can also change over time. And so think about it as there's a vector of skills, there's a set of skills, a set of traits that are really important, and different jobs will put a different weight on certain ones. So, in certain occupations and certain jobs, time management is absolutely critical. I mean, if you're a sales worker, Air traffic controller.
Soula Parassidis:Air traffic controller Perfect.
Norman Reinhardt:That's literally the best example that you could have. I have a lot of experience with air traffic control. Yeah, yeah, that's right.
Soula Parassidis:I knew an air traffic controller, by the way.
Norman Reinhardt:Yeah.
Soula Parassidis:Really Most stressed person I've ever met in my life. Oh no, I've never met an air traffic controller. We'll take that offline yeah her a compensating differential, because it's like so high stress that it, uh, you have to pay a lot, literally a million dollars. Yeah, if you're that stressed, you need to make more money. But seriously, like, how, how does one so?
Christos Makridis:we need to interview an air traffic controller for this.
Soula Parassidis:Yeah, we'll definitely do that behind the curtain of air traffic.
Christos Makridis:Yeah, that's right next time we're on an airplane we need to ask some uh, would you like to?
Soula Parassidis:but anyways, continue with the yeah I like there's so much happening in the room that also I'm just like stay focused, it's all good, I'm kidding. Okay, most artists don't have the finances to worry about what we're doing today a high production value podcast. How can somebody start in building their brand? With what they have so like. In our case, we were joking that we started living opera in the living room with a smartphone, with an office lamp, with a paper towel taped to it.
Norman Reinhardt:That was the filter.
Soula Parassidis:Because we realized it was hurting our eyes to look at the bright light, and we needed lighting because we looked like zombies on social media without it. So how does somebody start out? Because I feel like there's pressure, so okay. So let me rephrase this Every person can start. They start small, but I think sometimes the messaging is unless you have the big backing of a record label or a powerful agent or somebody who is taking care of the production value for you, then it's not valid. And furthermore, where does an artist get the money to do that? So how can a person create their brand in a low-cost way that doesn't eat up their budget for taking voice lessons?
Soula Parassidis:or coaching or whatever else they need to do.
Christos Makridis:Well, number one is that's something that we're doing in Living Opera, and we'll be talking about more in the weeks and months ahead is around just trying to empower more artists through micro grants and just providing access to additional funds.
Christos Makridis:So number one is that this is something that we're actively working on and passionate about, because we realize that things cost money, and you can't just do something for nothing. Number two, though, is recognize what you have and we all have sometimes more than we kind of give ourselves credit for and so there's a place to start, and if you're not sure where exactly to start, just try to start, and so I think your example I mean this is something that y'all have spoken about before and on Instagram many times is just how you started on Instagram, and you started with where you were, and so take time, a day, a week, however long it takes just to inventory where you are as a person. What experiences have you had that other people haven't had? What city are you in that other people aren't in and that you might be able to I mean, even just kind of travel blog, something like that? So there's so many different ways.
Soula Parassidis:So leverage technology, basically in some way.
Christos Makridis:Yeah, leverage technology, because technology can be a substitute or it can be a complement. Just, with this revolution around generative AI, there has been sometimes people critique it by saying like it's going to dumb people down.
Soula Parassidis:Well, the internet can also dumb people down if all you do Depends how you use the tool Exactly, just like how you use money Exactly, of course.
Christos Makridis:So all these things can be a blessing or a curse, and you just have to know how to wield it to augment yourself ultimately for the augmentation of others.
Soula Parassidis:I have a question that's going to hopefully put you right on the spot. Uh-oh, why, hopefully put you right on the spot?
Norman Reinhardt:Uh-oh.
Soula Parassidis:Why does it matter that artists are earning 30% less? Does it really matter in the grand scheme of the world? It's not like we're doctors, it's not like we're saving children on the front lines somewhere. Why does it matter that we're earning so much? Yeah, I'll give a couple of reasons.
Christos Makridis:Yeah, I mean this is something that obviously I've thought about a lot, because my CV and my profile would never make somebody think in academia that I would be interested in arts and culture because I I mean two doctorates at stanford silicon valley sort of environment yeah, why aren't you like with a unicorn that's like a billion dollar unicorn? Exactly, and on the moon by now. Maybe mars on the moon, maybe he is.
Christos Makridis:Yeah, maybe we'll get a filter next time on the moon harness the power get get a call from elon on the uh on the back uh phone over there, but I hope we're gonna get kicked out of here, yeah, but seriously, like, in all seriousness, most people's attitude and this is something that I found um interestingly.
Soula Parassidis:You know where I found this attitude most of all was in the comments section of the new york Times during the pandemic when there were arts and culture features.
Christos Makridis:No, I remember you telling me about it.
Soula Parassidis:Yeah, and I felt really sad because I kind of understood people's point, because healthcare workers were in the comment section saying, boo-hoo, you theater and art workers, whatever, like we're over here in the real trenches and yeah, you don't have money right now and it's too bad. And I thought to myself, oh, it sucks that we have such a either or perspective why can't we have a both and perspective?
Soula Parassidis:so I'd love to hear with your background. Technically, you should be in silicon valley on the billion dollar unicorn right now, but you're here with living opera. So why does it matter that artists are earning 30 less right now compared to their peers?
Christos Makridis:yeah, I think you said it well. There's two things I want to unpack. Number one is this concept of both is that we don't need to be pushed into this dichotomy where there's a finite amount of money, a finite number of jobs, there's always a possibility for more. The fact that we're doing a podcast is a testimony to the possibility of more. We weren't like oh, there's so many podcasts out, so that means that no one ever needs to hear about these experiences again. So what we're doing today is an example of there is room for more. Number two is that I think we need to have compassion for where people are. So, regardless of whether certain sectors are more important and I'll get to that in just a second that will be point number three. But point number two is that somebody isn't?
Soula Parassidis:There were air quotes on that, more important, by the way, for the audio. Yeah, yeah, yeah, air quotes exactly.
Christos Makridis:So that is me saying I don't agree with the more important and yet another air quote. But point number two was that somebody is in this job right now, so somebody is an artist, and they have a responsibility right now to themselves, to their family, and so you can't just say, oh well, we're just going to close everything and sorry that you're not a healthcare worker or you're not a data scientist or something like that. You just don't have money. So that's not a compassionate thing to say. And then number three is that the arts.
Christos Makridis:We all have an appreciation for beauty. We want to wear something that looks beautiful, we want to look beautiful, we want to be in buildings that look beautiful. We even want coffee cups that are beautiful, we want coffee that tastes really good. So everything that we do, we have an appreciation for beauty. And so we can't just say, well, the arts aren't important, because now, this is a Kantian perspective, would be simulate the world, universalize that claim. If we don't care about the arts, we don't care about beauty, we don't care about how we look, we don't care about how the buildings we make look. And this was something that you pointed out to me, I mean maybe a year and a half ago. And so art is so ubiquitous in our world that sometimes we take it for granted and we just assume that a building is going to be made to look nice. So I think that's number three.
Christos Makridis:And then I think just a way to kind of summarize all this is that of the question of why is it bad that artists are earning so much less? There will be so in the labor market. Of course. There's a different market value for different types of skills, so we can't have a labor market value for different types of skills, so we can't have a labor market where everything is paid the same. There's heterogeneity. There's heterogeneity in preferences, there's heterogeneity in productivity and so on. But when there's wide discrepancies that persist for periods of time, that will lead to feelings of inequity, it will lead to an exodus of workers. Because that can't. You can't go 30% to negative 60% for years and years. People are going to leave.
Christos Makridis:And so that has a long run effect on an industry, on people's psyche, on people's mental health, on their family, on their community, and so whenever that happens in any occupation, it'll be bad. So I'm not trying to say it's just because of the arts that that's bad. It's also. But it is the case that because it's in the arts, that's also probably particularly bad, because we rely on the arts and cultural sectors for the creation of beauty. You're not really going to a data scientist saying like, inspire me. I mean, you maybe want to see a beautiful plot, but that plot is more for instrumental reasons, because you want to understand what the data is saying. You're not going to the plot to see like a Mona Lisa. You're going to the plot to get information. So I think those are a couple reasons why the arts really matter and just why every job really matters. Somebody's in it and that person has a life and a story and other people that they're responsible to.
Soula Parassidis:Can I push you to dig a bit deeper? Because even most people would argue the the concept of beauty is subjective. So I mean I actually don't think that's true I think there are things that are objectively beautiful.
Christos Makridis:Or let's go here.
Soula Parassidis:Do you think if there wasn't such an oversupply of arts programs trying to tell people they can be professional artists, we would see this wage discrepancy?
Norman Reinhardt:I'm just playing devil's advocate a little bit because we have to have this conversation. No, the educational element is huge.
Soula Parassidis:I really think there's a responsibility, because what happens? So people sort of reach a point in their career as performing artists and maybe they just don't like the lifestyle, because the lifestyle is pretty weird.
Christos Makridis:Yeah, and it's hard.
Soula Parassidis:And they say, well, oh, my goodness, you know, I'm 37 years old, I don't have really any other skills. I don't want to reskill, I don't know how to reskill, I don't know how to start. Okay, I'll teach, and then we just I mean, when we were doing research we found out there's about around 3,200 vocal arts programs in the United States at some varying degree. You know you've got university ones and you've got other local community ones. Well, that's obviously too many.
Christos Makridis:Yeah For the demand.
Soula Parassidis:You know what I mean. So I just, I mean, I don't think we're going to solve this today, but I just wanted to push back a little bit because I think that just saying well, it's beautiful, so that means it's important. I think that that's an idea that we have to really think more deeply about and poke holes into, because that's what people are going to say, like so you're going to be a venture capitalist and I say, well, you need to invest in living opera because we are helping people who make beautiful things.
Soula Parassidis:Be like uh-huh. And how are you gonna make me money doing that?
Christos Makridis:Yeah.
Soula Parassidis:And that's always the argument. So it's like how do we?
Christos Makridis:Well, that's part of the sustainability, like you can't have an idea that grows if it's not financially sustainable. That is a big part of sustainability. So I don't mean to say that it's a categorical approval of anything, because then we can say it's art and that gives you a pass to do whatever you want. A pass to do whatever you want, right. So that that's definitely not not what I'm advocating for, and within living opera we do believe that there are.
Soula Parassidis:Yes, bring it back to the brand. That's what I've instructed you to do. I'm kidding, no, but I mean but I'm really, I'm really seriously, I'm really, because I obviously agree with you, and I'm an artist and at the end of the day, you know I have dreams and goals and aspirations as a singer and things that I want to do, but I'm also really tired of this particular argument, but I also don't feel like I necessarily yet have a great way to combat it.
Soula Parassidis:I mean, a lot of your research agenda is helping with that, because we're getting relevant data to talk to policymakers and say, hey, this is happening, that's happening but, it's too slow.
Christos Makridis:Well, yeah, I mean, research takes time. Oh and by the way surprise to everyone that when you see something published, it usually takes multiple years. Everyone that when you see something published, it usually takes multiple years. And in many professions well, at least in economics rejection rates are upwards of like 95 percent in the top journals. So you?
Christos Makridis:take multiple years yeah exactly Just like an audition. So that's why that's part of the reason why research can be very slow. But no, I mean, of course we're in agreement here that you can't just call something art and then get a pass. It needs to actually be beautiful, it needs to actually be transforming lives, and this is one of the reasons that impact evaluation is so important.
Christos Makridis:And the work in the economics of the arts is really bad, like most of the studies that are out there are. Just an institution wants to have a press statement about the economic benefits, so they hire a consultancy to write a study statement about the economic benefits, so they hire a consultancy to write a study that's very low quality. So we in the arts need to get better at doing true impact assessment. That will bring additional accountability on the sector, because sometimes the impact might be small and that needs to be wow.
Christos Makridis:We just did something that didn't really pay off that much for the community, for the participants, et cetera, et cetera. That can be okay if you learn from it. There's plenty of businesses that launch and then they fail. But the key is that you pivot and again, air quotes for those that are just listening you pivot in a Silicon Valley way to something better, something new, and so I think impact assessment needs to be at the heart of what we do in the arts, just like, and again, just like any other sector. Impact assessment, being honest about what is working and what is not.
Soula Parassidis:Okay, I mean, I think you're really good at talking and you've still sidestepped my question a little bit.
Christos Makridis:But that's okay. Do I get one more chance?
Soula Parassidis:So no, you're good, You're good. No no, no, okay, I feel like this is something that requires a longer conversation.
Norman Reinhardt:A whole new episode yeah, this is, I mean we're getting into it. I mean this is a long one.
Soula Parassidis:Yeah.
Norman Reinhardt:You can do long form on this. We'll seize it on this.
Soula Parassidis:But I think that it's obviously clear when the whole world shut down, everybody turned to the arts for comfort, and that's not changing. And that's not changing. And we have this window now where we can quantify what we do for people who are sort of like vehemently trying to poke holes and why what we do is relevant. Yeah, um on the funding side. I understand because, like right now, the world is in a really hard place yeah that's precisely why they need us. Yeah, no, no, definitely, no, definitely, no definitely.
Christos Makridis:So I want to make one last point in one minute. So in economics, there was this concept of an externality. When I buy coffee, that's a one-on-one transaction I get the coffee, somebody else gives it to me. There's not really an externality that's there, but an externality happens when there's a third party that's affected. And in the arts, this is one of the perfect examples of a sector that can have positive externalities, because things get more beautiful, people get more inspired, there is a ripple effect that happens. Now, every sector arguably has a ripple effect, but it's more economically present in the arts. And so in situations where there is an externality, the market price deviates from the social optimum, and that is why there is a rationale, an economic rationale in public economics, for funding the arts.
Christos Makridis:However, and this is a very important however, that is not a blanket statement of okay, $10 trillion to the arts, that kind of thing.
Christos Makridis:There has to be a balance. There always has to be a balance, and so there is a strong. There is an urgency within our profession economics, profession of like we need to figure out what is the optimal amount of funding, and that optimal amount depends on the quality of projects that are there. I mean, if all the projects out there are not good and they're not going to have a good impact, then the optimal amount might be zero. But if they're all good, maybe it's a lot higher. So I think this is just to kind of close the loop on this question of why the arts and how do we come to a more sophisticated and nuanced answer than just we have to fund the arts, because that's a very homogeneous and easy statement to make. We have to say what is the composition, what is the optimal amount, and then evaluate is it making people's lives better? So I think that concept of a positive externality was just one of the points.
Soula Parassidis:I wanted to end on. I think what we're landing on is that we have to be comfortable with an answer that says you have to put your own value on what this brings to your life, and that could be at a personal level. So a ticket. You know we're sitting behind the state opera right now. So if you think 80 euros or a hundred euros or 200 euros is worth that experience and you want it for you because it will be different than if somebody hires you, gives you a data set and says I know that if I hire Christos to to work on this for me and create a research paper, I can then leverage this to make $10 million.
Soula Parassidis:Like that's not necessarily how it works in our profession and we have to be comfortable with with that ambiguity.
Christos Makridis:Yeah, definitely.
Soula Parassidis:And again for anybody who's listening or watching obviously I'm an artist and I want us to prosper and thrive in our sector.
Soula Parassidis:These are the conversations that I've been having now for four or five years behind the scenes as I engage with more of people from Christo's world who are venture capitalists, who are funding the arts, who are in policy, et cetera, et cetera, and these are the kinds of answers that, as a community, I think we need to start seriously thinking about so we can see development of the sector. And I will bring it back to Living Opera. Now, that is what I'm passionate about finding as the person sort of like trying to forge the path here. Christos, thank you for, first of all, everything you do for our community, for your research papers, for sort of charging forth, and so congratulations on being published twice. Now. It's super amazing In this. I mean, you already have 100 publications, Like literally. You can just go look on his website.
Christos Makridis:Don't cry.
Soula Parassidis:You're doing a great job.
Christos Makridis:He's passionate.
Soula Parassidis:And I also just lastly want to thank the Bristol for hosting us. We are so grateful and it's a far cry from our living room in Vienna to be here in this beautiful suite and a testament to the highs and lows of this profession and what one can experience. We hope that you stay well, stay encouraged, think about these questions and we will keep doing the work to try and bring you good answers. And, yeah, bless you guys. Bye.
